Although Harry Potter is ostensibly a story about a boy wizard and magical boarding-school hijinks, it is also — no, wait, hear me out — a cautionary tale about the dangers of permissive parenting.
I teach my kiddos (10 and 7) that they need to greet people with respect (speak up, look them in the eye, be kind) and if they don’t want a hug, they decline it in a respectful way (“no thank you, but it’s good to see you!”). I do make them feel bad on plenty of occasions related to genuinely hurting themselves or others, but 9 times out of 10 the “if you don’t give me a hug I’ll pretend to cry” person just *wants* a hug. It’s not actually about their love for the kid or their feelings, they just want one, and I also think adults need to learn that they can’t have whatever they want from children.
Also one time my littlest said he didn’t want to give a hug, and minutes later he barfed EVERYWHERE. Kids know their own bodies more than we give them credit for? I’m glad he didn’t toss his cookies all over great grandma!
Like most things, I think none of it is all that serious, but I’ll just never make my kid hug someone they don’t want to hug.
Thank you for this. I am an older Gen-Xer who was raised to submit, politely and unquestioningly, to extremely unpleasant forced physical affection from relatives—my great aunts always left a trail of spit on my cheek after kissing me, and my grandfather used to sit on me, with all his weight, as a “joke.” These experiences didn’t make me love or respect these relatives more; they just taught me to dread their visits.
There is a middle ground: We parents can teach our kids to be respectful and considerate of others, without requiring them to undergo icky experiences just because someone older demands it of them.
With my own nieces and nephews, I always ask, “Hug or wave?” before moving in. This doesn’t seem like too much to expect of older relatives.
I’m sorry for your experience. That’s certainly above and beyond the norm of what grandparents usually do to aggravate kids. Most of the time grandparents are gentle and loving. I was so lucky with who my grandparents were, them being genuinely good people, but unfortunately, they died young. I didn’t get to know them nearly as much as I wanted to.
Right. This whole article is the wrong take. The idea that allowing children some bodily autonomy with who they want to give physical affection to is on par with permissive parenting like Dudley Dursley is ridiculous. There’s a way to strike a balance in giving them that autonomy, while also teaching them how to respond / decline in a respectful manner.
“I also think adults need to learn that they can’t have whatever they want from children.” It’s also important to model the behavior we expect from children. There’s a way to use these moments to teach them how to accept a no gracefully, as should be expected from the child as well.
I’m tired of seeing articles dismissing millennial or gen z parenting style as permissive or “gentle parenting”. It’s such a boring take and superficial judging, when in my experience their parenting is a lot more thoughtful than this—as well as pretty well informed by recent child development research.
From what I see of other parents these days is that there is a much better understanding of the importance of being “authoritative” for kids — neither permissive or authoritarian. There are ways to maintain boundaries for kids while still treating them like individuals worthy of respect and sympathy. Them rejecting the authoritarian style of boomer parenting (whose narrative is often blaming their kids for their own shitty parenting) is honestly a good thing. You want kids to behave or do the right thing because they want to and intellectually understand why—not because they’re afraid or forced.
Our granddaughter (2yr) sometimes hugs us and sometimes not. Usually when it’s no, the house full of people and I think she’s just in sensory overload. If it’s just us and her fam, we almost always get enthusiastic hugs. I’m ok either way. And I never want anyone telling her it will make me sad if she doesn’t. It won’t. And her voluntary hugs? The best thing in the world.
So somebody left a truly nasty comment on my note and then blocked me. I did get it in my email though! So thanks for that... Whoever you are, you suck.
Just from your sicko title, nobody should ever take your advice. So many pathetic women who have taken a ton from men, and you all do because women pay negative Taxes In men pay positive taxes so yes, no matter what you do you are taking for men because they subsidize you. Even water. The people who work in water and sewer 99.4% men. We wouldn’t have anything to drink without men we wouldn’t have constructed homes. We wouldn’t have electricity we wouldn’t have light, heat, truckers to take our food to us, just constant darkness and coldness starvation in a cave if it wasn’t for men.
They make our automobiles still, and are still our most of our fireman and policeman and recently a woman let a man burn to death, and told her husband, “your husband got himself in the wrong place” OK what if that was a person you loved and they were overweight and she couldn’t pick them up?! you call yourself a goddess and you can’t do shit!!!
There's a big difference between "not kissing or hugging" and "not recoiling or treating people like garbage." I still think kids shouldn't be forced to kiss or hug anyone.
To me it’s about teaching children what we owe to each other and about acting properly towards family members who love us and whom we should love - despite our inward emotions. It’s a lesson that we sometimes must act in spite of our emotions instead of in concert with them. We sacrifice briefly our comfort out of love and respect.
I have an aunt who is strange - a bit autistic perhaps. She was strange when I was a child and she’s strange now that I’m 40. Even as an adult, I don’t *want* to hug her at family events. But it’s the right thing to do at 40 - just as it was when I was 10.
One thing to keep in mind is that the cultural norms (or specific family norms) around these sorts of things are going to vary quite a bit. There is probably no ‘one right way’ of doing it. That being said, it feels to me like the reason underneath the various customs is a respect for familial bonds and also for hierarchies within community that reflect value toward experience and seniority. There is even a value put on social cohesion and connectedness in some cultures..these are the things that people have found they need to thrive over time.. e.g. (we need each other).
When we submit to the cultural practices in our family, we are in the end, valuing these principles of human connection and thriving.
If we feel the aim or end result of any particular cultural practice is not that, we can usually sense it eventually in the other participant and it is ok not to participate.
Children will probably not understand this until they are much older, just as they don’t understand why germs make them sick and why consistent self denial toward the end of personal hygiene will spare them difficulty…this must be taught.
In the same way, they must be shown that respect for the nuclear family and the extended hierarchies within it are not just an arbitrary form. Submission to family seniority enables us to learn valuable lessons of unselfishness and working together with those that are the closest to us..values that we can later practice in our community at large. The home can be a greenhouse for personal responsibility for the good citizen.
Today, most people live separated and self-sufficient lives to the extent that there is not much value seen in interpersonal cooperation and coordination. The end result of most of this is that we see less need for each other…our needs for each other seem distant and disconnected (we are steps removed from direct connection).
Because of this, we have naturally fostered a condition of selfishness and independence which have concerning consequences for mental health.
These are just musings..may or may not be relevant.
Cultural norms, yes. What’s interesting and seems hypocritical to me is that the same people who freak out over parents encouraging reluctant American kids to hug their grandparents are the same people who would justify the cloistering and forced modesty of girls and women in Islamic societies under the guise of cultural relativism.
I’m in your camp on this. Conflating the act of courtesy in a response to a hug with the language of sexual violation is confusing. Not to mention utterly insane.
I feel the same way every time I see those stupid posters that declare: X (some school or institution) is PROUD TO BE - STIGMA FREE. I want to scream- what’s wrong with a little stigma?? For heavens sake, for centuries it’s helped us understand and teach why certain behaviors are bad/damaging/sinful.
And why they should be avoided.
Without those guardrails, how do you direct people into positive and healthy behaviors?
I think it’s the opposite. Teaching children that they have to let grandpa touch them in ways that they hate and find degrading and make them uncomfortable and they have to pretend to like it UNLESS it’s sexual is confusing. They don’t know what sex is.
I’m talking about a quick hug, not a dirty grandpa grope. An innocent gesture from a grandparent, monitored of course by the parent, is a reasonable thing to ask of a child. Many things in life are uncomfortable but not threatening. Children can learn to manage minor discomfort and to discern the difference.
I think a lot of people are conflating hugs with some truly awful behavior. There are such a thing as innocent hugs and it's okay for kids to get used to them. I was a reluctant hugger and I'm really glad that I wasn't allowed to put that shell around myself.
But it’s never the children’s responsibility to be on the uncomfortable on the adults behalf. It’s the adults responsibility to ensure they are comfortable. Not coddled, but seen, understood and respected.
People think kids can't differentiate things they definitely can. I remember someone explaining that her kids have to wear a helmet on a balance bike because they wouldn't know the difference once they graduate to a pedal bike. My kids somehow, in their amazing brilliance, knew to run for the helmet when they switched between bike types. Kids aren't dumb.
I completely agree with this and I’m glad to see people like you writing about it. I sincerely hope we can back off from this idea that our kids are born, in Janet Lansbury’s words, “Whole and competent.” My twin 2 year olds shit their pants and fistfight each other over Cheerios. Give me a break.
I’m trying to nut up and have the courage to talk more openly about the fact that I’m totally old school in my parenting philosophy. I love my kids more than I have ever loved anything, but I don’t think my #1 obligation in every interaction is to connect with them. I do love to connect with them, but my parents priorities are legion: Show them limits, teach them how to behave in company, control their impulses, understand the value of money, have a good work ethic, and get ready to be adults that have strong guiding principles. Young American adults now seem to be best at immediate self-gratification and biting the hand that feeds them and I think that sucks - and their psychological profiles suggest I’m right.
Many years ago my son was put on suspension for 3 days for a fight among a group of children. Truth be told he was in the wrong place with rowdy children who did not like to share, according to his teacher who called me then quit over it because it was egregious (private school). But for three days he was miserable because I made it miserable. The only lesson I wanted him to learn is when things start looking chaotic, you walk away. He was 6. Zero issues when the stakes were higher (high school, foreign travel) because he dislikes chaos. I could’ve fought it but why? Unfairness is everywhere. But being able to identify trouble before it starts? Priceless.
There are certainly ways for children to show respect to elders, family members, etc., without acquiescing to unwanted hugging or kissing. I dunno, it’s always seemed awfully presumptuous to me for people to expect such things from anyone, let alone children.
When you stomped that mole, did you do it as a reactionary action – or did you want the mole to die? Did you pause before stomping it?
I’m not trying to be an asshole, I’m 100% serious – because there’s a distinct difference. You can be taught to care for the natural world – without being “guilted/tricked” into believing/doing it – it can also be explained. I don’t see why people feel the need to *not* explain things to children. The earlier the real explanations the better – because then, children begin to discern things themselves.
There’s a slippery slope here. People who wish to manipulate other people – quickly figure out – very early on, that they can do it *based on guilt.*
The vast majority of the time, people want other people to “feel bad” or more accurately “feel guilt” as a manipulative measure.
That being the case, children must be taught to ignore this impulse. It’s not that guilt is not “needed” or not “valid” – it’s that you should come to it on your own. Not be “guided” to feel guilt – because someone else tells you, you should.
This is a serious problem. Many people are carrying around the weight of things that they have never done – and it’s driven by those who wish to manipulate them. That’s not to say that those who teach this, consider these things. They in fact have learned the same behavior from whoever raised them.
However, I believe that children should be shielded from this manipulation. Because it can only be used against them. There is no in-between.
Meh, people should feel guilt when they do bad things, not an all-consuming shame, but we want children to develop consciences, and what is parenting but “manipulating” children into becoming kind, discerning, and productive adults? I agree that Kat shouldn’t have been reprimanded much for what was an involuntary act, especially if she was already beating herself up over it like most kids would do if they accidentally killed a mole.
Parenting is not “’manipulating’ children into becoming kind, discerning, and productive adults.”
Teaching someone to reason – is not manipulation.
If a parent tries to use manipulative techniques to teach their child – the child will be open to the manipulative techniques – of other people.
The child won’t have the discernment to know when someone is manipulating them. Because their upbringing will echo the same manipulations – as those trying to manipulate them as an adult.
It’s a vicious cycle. It’s also the reason that most people are in some kind of therapy as an adult. They don’t know how to discern right and wrong. They feel guilty for things they’ve never done, and it can easily be weaponized against them.
Of course, this is the worst case scenario, but then, look at the number of adults in the US who are in some kind of therapy. They’re confused about things that most people (those who are immune to manipulation) already understand.
I agree that parents should resist the impulse to coerce belief systems onto their children when possible - especially through shame - but our every action as people and parents are tinged with unquestioned beliefs, ethical frameworks, and biased by personal experience. Even if you somehow had the time to engage in socratic dialogues with your children for every "mole" they "stomp", your personal biases and societal norms will definitely have a lot of sway in their acquired beliefs. Which is to say, they'll probably end up in therapy anyway haha
Not that practicing therapy is an indication that someone has a moral deficit, at least not more so than the average person. It seems like therapy is marketed as "preventative care" for the upper middle class and college educated, anyway.
My take is - instead of striving to treat children like fully rational brains in little bodies, we should accept that coercion and manipulation are natural tools in our attempts to be good parents, partners, and humans. Granted, tools that should be used sparingly and carefully.
Even if you somehow had the time to engage in Socratic dialogues with your children for every "mole" they "stomp", your personal biases and societal norms will definitely have a lot of sway in their acquired beliefs.
***
I indeed have that kind of time. However, I condense the Socratic dialogue into our Friday Debate Night – with the whole family! 😆😄😂
No, I understand what you mean. There will always be some bit of manipulation, but there are varying degrees to which it is applied. For example, when children are really young spanking works. It’s like touching a hot stove, pain works to keep someone from doing it twice. But once children are older, and can reason, teaching them is the best approach.
I don’t think that teaching children to reason – even from a young age, will result in them becoming little sociopaths, or acting like Data from Star Trek. At least that’s not my experience.
I believe it’s important for people to “think” their way through life, not “feel” their way through life. Because the latter will always result in someone taking advantage. Of course, you always have love, and regular emotion, but that’s different. You aren’t always operating in a “love” or “emotional” mindset when you’re doing everyday things.
It makes me think of people who are physically abused as a child. For some reason they almost always end up with someone physically abusive as an adult. It’s the abusive conditioning that carries over.
However, if children are conditioned to think, they will not end up in those kinds of situations. Because it will be immediately noticeable. They will have discernment and be able to look at things objectively.
I agree with your logic and it’s born out in my experience with kids (no kids of my own but >30 nieces and nephews):
1. A child has to know that he is loved to become a healthy adult (Knowing that you are loved is the first step to loving others, which will result in appropriate signs of affection).
2. A child has to develop virtue (moral behavior) to live a healthy life.
3. A parent’s job, then, in every disciplinary interaction, is twofold: articulate right conduct at the same time that you let your child understand their lovability is not at stake when they misbehave.
“Making a child feel bad” may result accidentally when you’re trying to love and teach your child (like if you yell out of fear because the kid ran in the street) but I don’t think there’s much room to insist that that is a proper method, for the precise problem mentioned above of manipulation. The action is not loving or teaching but shaming, which I don’t think can be our proper motive for behavior.
Inflexibly holding to high standards for your child, out of love, will help her develop into an intact person who knows how to have relationships with other people. That’s the secret to life.
good point, but even if the author came to feel guilt about their actions on their own, i think its ok as an adult to express your natural dissaproval over certain actions. Parents aren’t creating a walled garden devoid of societal expectations or shame, theres tons of “manipulation” thrown in there too. The healthy limit of said manipulation is highly context dependent of course, which makes this topic such an enduring discourse
The problem is, is that there is a fine line between bodily autonomy and not making an elderly relative feel bad. There is no way that the grandpa who was missing fingers didn’t know that a small child might be scared of that and as an adult he should adult about it. The parent didn’t need to scold the child but slowly introduce the child to the situation and let them see that it was ok.
Not every adult your child comes across may wish them well. They are entitled to their instincts. Let them question and let them know as the parent you support them.
I agree with part of your writing - children should, and in fact do, learn that when they feel bad about something it means they shouldn’t repeat the behavior. But to compare a three year old not wanting to hug someone with your five-year-old self killing a living thing is…lacking. The comparison is not the same. I understand what you’re trying to say, but there is no moral equivalence with not hugging and not killing.
Yes, I think someone who outright says they want a three year old to “feel bad” for not giving them a hug might be lacking in their own ability to regulate emotionally. If you’re hurt by a toddler rejecting you - I don’t know that you’ve been around many toddlers.
I have mixed feelings here. On the one hand, I think your point about courtesy is well-taken. The idea that there is a basic standard of behaviour that can be expected of children has unfortunately fallen by the wayside.
That said, how far do we extend that? I do think that a sense of reserve from a stranger is a healthy thing. I remember as a young child being introduced to a friend of my grandmother’s. I’m not proud of this, but I was frightened of her because she was enormously fat, and when she asked me for a hug I ran away and hid in another room. I was told that I was very rude and had hurt her very much, and made to come back and give her a hug. I do think that, although my impulse was rude (clearly fat people are not disgusting or frightening, and I am sure it was very hurtful for her), it was wrong to force the issue. A child should not feel obliged to hug a stranger.
An interesting case is arising with my niece. She can be capricious with her affections (she’s 3), and is recently very resistant to hugging my dad. This is upsetting to him; on the other hand, I do think that she is old enough to pick up on his disinterest and unwillingness to engage on her terms. It’s the natural withdrawing you feel from a person who is incapable of responding to your affection. I don’t know what I’ll do when it’s my kid - I am rarely affectionate with my dad myself these days, but I do want him to feel loved.
I mean, if your dad is patient your niece will come around. My niece was like that the first couple of years of her life - she was scared of men. But just by being there a lot she eventually warmed up to me. I never forced the issue, of course.
Rereading the last sentence of your original comment, and please don’t take this the wrong way, maybe you should model the affection you’d like to see for your niece and eventual kid? I’m a big hugger and grew up in a family of huggers, so maybe you could make sure to visibly hug your dad in front of your niece to model the desired behavior and show that it’s normal? At the very least it might make your dad feel better, knowing that you’re loved is important, especially as we age to the point where we aren’t particularly productive.
Respectfully disagree on this one. As someone who is not a hugger myself, I’ve never been one to force it on my kids. This has never been an issue as our extended family and friends are pretty chill, but if a grandparent truly felt slighted because my kid didn’t want to hug and kiss them I would probably talk to my child about how we could show grandpa we are happy he’s here in another way. Maybe make him a special drawing or bake them something or just say in a nice way “hi grandpa, ima I glad you are here.”
I get that we need to teach kids that showing affection and welcome to family members is important, but maybe it’s the adults who guilt kids into giving hugs that never learned the art of caring for others feelings and comfort.
I don’t agree that children need to be made to feel bad.
I don’t believe that adults are entitled to affection from anyone, especially children.
I believe that any kind of affection in a relationship should be given voluntarily out of desire for that connection.
It comes naturally when in relationship.
If a relative hasn’t invested in getting to know my child, it’s natural my child won’t want to spend time with them or hug them.
My kids have a family member who makes them feel uncomfortable.
I’ve never told them about his objectifying comments, stares, ogles or stacks of porn in his house.
They can feel it, and as a result feel repulsed by him and refuse his “affection” though he tries to buy them with toys- as many groomers do.
My oldest at 15 told me last year, that this relative is a pedo and he just knows. I neither confirmed nor denied this, rather talked through how to handle the scenario.
Kids know wtf is up. It’s our responsibility to listen and understand so we know when to intervene and how.
So, my 9 year old niece has been raised by her single doctor mom with the usual gentle parenting and long discussions of every little goddamn thing when "no" would suffice, but what do I know, I'm a man who managed to raise, along with my wife, two boys into men, who we had while in our early 30s, twenty years before my SIL decided to have a medically-assisted baby at 49.
At 7 or 8, said niece decided to play hide and seek by laying on the ground under her babysitters Subaru moments before said babysitter got into the driver's seat to go home. I happened to be there and noticed niece under the damn car. The babysitter (a 30 year old normal person making a few extra bucks) and I pulled the idiot child out from under the car and asked her why she wanted to have a car roll over her head? Words like what were you thinking, you could have been killed, were uttered in, um slightly non-gentle, permissive ways.
The Mom, who was inside the house when this happened, was apprised. She was upset that non-gentle words were used with precious-- "she's not used to being spoken to harshly," and a long Mom-niece discussion ensued to convey the message that Mommy would be very upset if something bad happened to precious and would you like some ice cream to get over the hurt of being yelled at?
I think this is a different scenario than what the author is writing about.
I agree with using this an urgent tone of voice in urgent situations.
It’s unnatural to not get angry and protective for your kids even if that means anger at their behavior.
The author is saying children should be shamed into giving affection to relatives. You’re talking more about scolding them for being rude or dangerous- or even making stupid decisions.
I agree, it doesn’t benefit children to smile and play nice when their literal lives are at stake.
I suspect most of these comments are reflections of the writers’ culture and geography. Some people come from chilly, reserved cultures, and some don’t. I agree with you that there is such as thing as “overthinking,” and think (hopefully without overdoing it) that this is one. I live in a place (Quebec, and also Jewish) where refusing that type of contact is just regarded as rude (although COVID did have an impact on this as on so many things). I also am English Canadian, and so understand the cultural impulses of the opposite reaction. Kids should learn to respect the cultures they grow up in - and eventually, others too.
I teach my kiddos (10 and 7) that they need to greet people with respect (speak up, look them in the eye, be kind) and if they don’t want a hug, they decline it in a respectful way (“no thank you, but it’s good to see you!”). I do make them feel bad on plenty of occasions related to genuinely hurting themselves or others, but 9 times out of 10 the “if you don’t give me a hug I’ll pretend to cry” person just *wants* a hug. It’s not actually about their love for the kid or their feelings, they just want one, and I also think adults need to learn that they can’t have whatever they want from children.
Also one time my littlest said he didn’t want to give a hug, and minutes later he barfed EVERYWHERE. Kids know their own bodies more than we give them credit for? I’m glad he didn’t toss his cookies all over great grandma!
Like most things, I think none of it is all that serious, but I’ll just never make my kid hug someone they don’t want to hug.
Thank you for this. I am an older Gen-Xer who was raised to submit, politely and unquestioningly, to extremely unpleasant forced physical affection from relatives—my great aunts always left a trail of spit on my cheek after kissing me, and my grandfather used to sit on me, with all his weight, as a “joke.” These experiences didn’t make me love or respect these relatives more; they just taught me to dread their visits.
There is a middle ground: We parents can teach our kids to be respectful and considerate of others, without requiring them to undergo icky experiences just because someone older demands it of them.
With my own nieces and nephews, I always ask, “Hug or wave?” before moving in. This doesn’t seem like too much to expect of older relatives.
I’m sorry for your experience. That’s certainly above and beyond the norm of what grandparents usually do to aggravate kids. Most of the time grandparents are gentle and loving. I was so lucky with who my grandparents were, them being genuinely good people, but unfortunately, they died young. I didn’t get to know them nearly as much as I wanted to.
Right. This whole article is the wrong take. The idea that allowing children some bodily autonomy with who they want to give physical affection to is on par with permissive parenting like Dudley Dursley is ridiculous. There’s a way to strike a balance in giving them that autonomy, while also teaching them how to respond / decline in a respectful manner.
“I also think adults need to learn that they can’t have whatever they want from children.” It’s also important to model the behavior we expect from children. There’s a way to use these moments to teach them how to accept a no gracefully, as should be expected from the child as well.
I’m tired of seeing articles dismissing millennial or gen z parenting style as permissive or “gentle parenting”. It’s such a boring take and superficial judging, when in my experience their parenting is a lot more thoughtful than this—as well as pretty well informed by recent child development research.
From what I see of other parents these days is that there is a much better understanding of the importance of being “authoritative” for kids — neither permissive or authoritarian. There are ways to maintain boundaries for kids while still treating them like individuals worthy of respect and sympathy. Them rejecting the authoritarian style of boomer parenting (whose narrative is often blaming their kids for their own shitty parenting) is honestly a good thing. You want kids to behave or do the right thing because they want to and intellectually understand why—not because they’re afraid or forced.
Our granddaughter (2yr) sometimes hugs us and sometimes not. Usually when it’s no, the house full of people and I think she’s just in sensory overload. If it’s just us and her fam, we almost always get enthusiastic hugs. I’m ok either way. And I never want anyone telling her it will make me sad if she doesn’t. It won’t. And her voluntary hugs? The best thing in the world.
So somebody left a truly nasty comment on my note and then blocked me. I did get it in my email though! So thanks for that... Whoever you are, you suck.
Nasty yes, but also completely unhinged! I wouldn’t worry about it too much 😉
No kidding! I’ve received ad hominem attacks before, but this one was truly a head scratcher…
omg your pronouns are amazing 🤩
Just from your sicko title, nobody should ever take your advice. So many pathetic women who have taken a ton from men, and you all do because women pay negative Taxes In men pay positive taxes so yes, no matter what you do you are taking for men because they subsidize you. Even water. The people who work in water and sewer 99.4% men. We wouldn’t have anything to drink without men we wouldn’t have constructed homes. We wouldn’t have electricity we wouldn’t have light, heat, truckers to take our food to us, just constant darkness and coldness starvation in a cave if it wasn’t for men.
They make our automobiles still, and are still our most of our fireman and policeman and recently a woman let a man burn to death, and told her husband, “your husband got himself in the wrong place” OK what if that was a person you loved and they were overweight and she couldn’t pick them up?! you call yourself a goddess and you can’t do shit!!!
"It taught me that other people had feelings, and that I was capable of causing them pain." Well-put.
There's a big difference between "not kissing or hugging" and "not recoiling or treating people like garbage." I still think kids shouldn't be forced to kiss or hug anyone.
To me it’s about teaching children what we owe to each other and about acting properly towards family members who love us and whom we should love - despite our inward emotions. It’s a lesson that we sometimes must act in spite of our emotions instead of in concert with them. We sacrifice briefly our comfort out of love and respect.
I have an aunt who is strange - a bit autistic perhaps. She was strange when I was a child and she’s strange now that I’m 40. Even as an adult, I don’t *want* to hug her at family events. But it’s the right thing to do at 40 - just as it was when I was 10.
Whether it was the "right" thing to do at 10 doesn't matter. Children still shouldn't be forced or shamed into doing it.
One thing to keep in mind is that the cultural norms (or specific family norms) around these sorts of things are going to vary quite a bit. There is probably no ‘one right way’ of doing it. That being said, it feels to me like the reason underneath the various customs is a respect for familial bonds and also for hierarchies within community that reflect value toward experience and seniority. There is even a value put on social cohesion and connectedness in some cultures..these are the things that people have found they need to thrive over time.. e.g. (we need each other).
When we submit to the cultural practices in our family, we are in the end, valuing these principles of human connection and thriving.
If we feel the aim or end result of any particular cultural practice is not that, we can usually sense it eventually in the other participant and it is ok not to participate.
Children will probably not understand this until they are much older, just as they don’t understand why germs make them sick and why consistent self denial toward the end of personal hygiene will spare them difficulty…this must be taught.
In the same way, they must be shown that respect for the nuclear family and the extended hierarchies within it are not just an arbitrary form. Submission to family seniority enables us to learn valuable lessons of unselfishness and working together with those that are the closest to us..values that we can later practice in our community at large. The home can be a greenhouse for personal responsibility for the good citizen.
Today, most people live separated and self-sufficient lives to the extent that there is not much value seen in interpersonal cooperation and coordination. The end result of most of this is that we see less need for each other…our needs for each other seem distant and disconnected (we are steps removed from direct connection).
Because of this, we have naturally fostered a condition of selfishness and independence which have concerning consequences for mental health.
These are just musings..may or may not be relevant.
Cultural norms, yes. What’s interesting and seems hypocritical to me is that the same people who freak out over parents encouraging reluctant American kids to hug their grandparents are the same people who would justify the cloistering and forced modesty of girls and women in Islamic societies under the guise of cultural relativism.
Your musings hit the target. Totally agree
Hugging? Westerners are weird. In Vietnamese culture, we teach our children to fold their arms and bow to their elders in respect.
I’m in your camp on this. Conflating the act of courtesy in a response to a hug with the language of sexual violation is confusing. Not to mention utterly insane.
I feel the same way every time I see those stupid posters that declare: X (some school or institution) is PROUD TO BE - STIGMA FREE. I want to scream- what’s wrong with a little stigma?? For heavens sake, for centuries it’s helped us understand and teach why certain behaviors are bad/damaging/sinful.
And why they should be avoided.
Without those guardrails, how do you direct people into positive and healthy behaviors?
I think it’s the opposite. Teaching children that they have to let grandpa touch them in ways that they hate and find degrading and make them uncomfortable and they have to pretend to like it UNLESS it’s sexual is confusing. They don’t know what sex is.
I’m talking about a quick hug, not a dirty grandpa grope. An innocent gesture from a grandparent, monitored of course by the parent, is a reasonable thing to ask of a child. Many things in life are uncomfortable but not threatening. Children can learn to manage minor discomfort and to discern the difference.
I think a lot of people are conflating hugs with some truly awful behavior. There are such a thing as innocent hugs and it's okay for kids to get used to them. I was a reluctant hugger and I'm really glad that I wasn't allowed to put that shell around myself.
But it’s never the children’s responsibility to be on the uncomfortable on the adults behalf. It’s the adults responsibility to ensure they are comfortable. Not coddled, but seen, understood and respected.
The difference is obvious to you, but not to them. They don't know what sex is.
People think kids can't differentiate things they definitely can. I remember someone explaining that her kids have to wear a helmet on a balance bike because they wouldn't know the difference once they graduate to a pedal bike. My kids somehow, in their amazing brilliance, knew to run for the helmet when they switched between bike types. Kids aren't dumb.
I completely agree with this and I’m glad to see people like you writing about it. I sincerely hope we can back off from this idea that our kids are born, in Janet Lansbury’s words, “Whole and competent.” My twin 2 year olds shit their pants and fistfight each other over Cheerios. Give me a break.
I’m trying to nut up and have the courage to talk more openly about the fact that I’m totally old school in my parenting philosophy. I love my kids more than I have ever loved anything, but I don’t think my #1 obligation in every interaction is to connect with them. I do love to connect with them, but my parents priorities are legion: Show them limits, teach them how to behave in company, control their impulses, understand the value of money, have a good work ethic, and get ready to be adults that have strong guiding principles. Young American adults now seem to be best at immediate self-gratification and biting the hand that feeds them and I think that sucks - and their psychological profiles suggest I’m right.
I agree with you.
Many years ago my son was put on suspension for 3 days for a fight among a group of children. Truth be told he was in the wrong place with rowdy children who did not like to share, according to his teacher who called me then quit over it because it was egregious (private school). But for three days he was miserable because I made it miserable. The only lesson I wanted him to learn is when things start looking chaotic, you walk away. He was 6. Zero issues when the stakes were higher (high school, foreign travel) because he dislikes chaos. I could’ve fought it but why? Unfairness is everywhere. But being able to identify trouble before it starts? Priceless.
Another great skill to teach our kids! I’ll add that to my list.
There are certainly ways for children to show respect to elders, family members, etc., without acquiescing to unwanted hugging or kissing. I dunno, it’s always seemed awfully presumptuous to me for people to expect such things from anyone, let alone children.
I disagree, let me explain why.
When you stomped that mole, did you do it as a reactionary action – or did you want the mole to die? Did you pause before stomping it?
I’m not trying to be an asshole, I’m 100% serious – because there’s a distinct difference. You can be taught to care for the natural world – without being “guilted/tricked” into believing/doing it – it can also be explained. I don’t see why people feel the need to *not* explain things to children. The earlier the real explanations the better – because then, children begin to discern things themselves.
There’s a slippery slope here. People who wish to manipulate other people – quickly figure out – very early on, that they can do it *based on guilt.*
The vast majority of the time, people want other people to “feel bad” or more accurately “feel guilt” as a manipulative measure.
That being the case, children must be taught to ignore this impulse. It’s not that guilt is not “needed” or not “valid” – it’s that you should come to it on your own. Not be “guided” to feel guilt – because someone else tells you, you should.
This is a serious problem. Many people are carrying around the weight of things that they have never done – and it’s driven by those who wish to manipulate them. That’s not to say that those who teach this, consider these things. They in fact have learned the same behavior from whoever raised them.
However, I believe that children should be shielded from this manipulation. Because it can only be used against them. There is no in-between.
Meh, people should feel guilt when they do bad things, not an all-consuming shame, but we want children to develop consciences, and what is parenting but “manipulating” children into becoming kind, discerning, and productive adults? I agree that Kat shouldn’t have been reprimanded much for what was an involuntary act, especially if she was already beating herself up over it like most kids would do if they accidentally killed a mole.
I must disagree.
Parenting is not “’manipulating’ children into becoming kind, discerning, and productive adults.”
Teaching someone to reason – is not manipulation.
If a parent tries to use manipulative techniques to teach their child – the child will be open to the manipulative techniques – of other people.
The child won’t have the discernment to know when someone is manipulating them. Because their upbringing will echo the same manipulations – as those trying to manipulate them as an adult.
It’s a vicious cycle. It’s also the reason that most people are in some kind of therapy as an adult. They don’t know how to discern right and wrong. They feel guilty for things they’ve never done, and it can easily be weaponized against them.
Of course, this is the worst case scenario, but then, look at the number of adults in the US who are in some kind of therapy. They’re confused about things that most people (those who are immune to manipulation) already understand.
I agree that parents should resist the impulse to coerce belief systems onto their children when possible - especially through shame - but our every action as people and parents are tinged with unquestioned beliefs, ethical frameworks, and biased by personal experience. Even if you somehow had the time to engage in socratic dialogues with your children for every "mole" they "stomp", your personal biases and societal norms will definitely have a lot of sway in their acquired beliefs. Which is to say, they'll probably end up in therapy anyway haha
Not that practicing therapy is an indication that someone has a moral deficit, at least not more so than the average person. It seems like therapy is marketed as "preventative care" for the upper middle class and college educated, anyway.
My take is - instead of striving to treat children like fully rational brains in little bodies, we should accept that coercion and manipulation are natural tools in our attempts to be good parents, partners, and humans. Granted, tools that should be used sparingly and carefully.
***
Even if you somehow had the time to engage in Socratic dialogues with your children for every "mole" they "stomp", your personal biases and societal norms will definitely have a lot of sway in their acquired beliefs.
***
I indeed have that kind of time. However, I condense the Socratic dialogue into our Friday Debate Night – with the whole family! 😆😄😂
No, I understand what you mean. There will always be some bit of manipulation, but there are varying degrees to which it is applied. For example, when children are really young spanking works. It’s like touching a hot stove, pain works to keep someone from doing it twice. But once children are older, and can reason, teaching them is the best approach.
I don’t think that teaching children to reason – even from a young age, will result in them becoming little sociopaths, or acting like Data from Star Trek. At least that’s not my experience.
I believe it’s important for people to “think” their way through life, not “feel” their way through life. Because the latter will always result in someone taking advantage. Of course, you always have love, and regular emotion, but that’s different. You aren’t always operating in a “love” or “emotional” mindset when you’re doing everyday things.
It makes me think of people who are physically abused as a child. For some reason they almost always end up with someone physically abusive as an adult. It’s the abusive conditioning that carries over.
However, if children are conditioned to think, they will not end up in those kinds of situations. Because it will be immediately noticeable. They will have discernment and be able to look at things objectively.
I agree with your logic and it’s born out in my experience with kids (no kids of my own but >30 nieces and nephews):
1. A child has to know that he is loved to become a healthy adult (Knowing that you are loved is the first step to loving others, which will result in appropriate signs of affection).
2. A child has to develop virtue (moral behavior) to live a healthy life.
3. A parent’s job, then, in every disciplinary interaction, is twofold: articulate right conduct at the same time that you let your child understand their lovability is not at stake when they misbehave.
“Making a child feel bad” may result accidentally when you’re trying to love and teach your child (like if you yell out of fear because the kid ran in the street) but I don’t think there’s much room to insist that that is a proper method, for the precise problem mentioned above of manipulation. The action is not loving or teaching but shaming, which I don’t think can be our proper motive for behavior.
Inflexibly holding to high standards for your child, out of love, will help her develop into an intact person who knows how to have relationships with other people. That’s the secret to life.
good point, but even if the author came to feel guilt about their actions on their own, i think its ok as an adult to express your natural dissaproval over certain actions. Parents aren’t creating a walled garden devoid of societal expectations or shame, theres tons of “manipulation” thrown in there too. The healthy limit of said manipulation is highly context dependent of course, which makes this topic such an enduring discourse
I responded to the other response. 😆😄😂 I think it covers what you’re getting at.
That’s a very insightful and well-put description.
🎯 !!!
The problem is, is that there is a fine line between bodily autonomy and not making an elderly relative feel bad. There is no way that the grandpa who was missing fingers didn’t know that a small child might be scared of that and as an adult he should adult about it. The parent didn’t need to scold the child but slowly introduce the child to the situation and let them see that it was ok.
Not every adult your child comes across may wish them well. They are entitled to their instincts. Let them question and let them know as the parent you support them.
Sorry but children’s safety comes first.
I agree with part of your writing - children should, and in fact do, learn that when they feel bad about something it means they shouldn’t repeat the behavior. But to compare a three year old not wanting to hug someone with your five-year-old self killing a living thing is…lacking. The comparison is not the same. I understand what you’re trying to say, but there is no moral equivalence with not hugging and not killing.
Yes, I think someone who outright says they want a three year old to “feel bad” for not giving them a hug might be lacking in their own ability to regulate emotionally. If you’re hurt by a toddler rejecting you - I don’t know that you’ve been around many toddlers.
Your writing is excellent.
You have misunderstood what is being compared, but thanks for reading
I have mixed feelings here. On the one hand, I think your point about courtesy is well-taken. The idea that there is a basic standard of behaviour that can be expected of children has unfortunately fallen by the wayside.
That said, how far do we extend that? I do think that a sense of reserve from a stranger is a healthy thing. I remember as a young child being introduced to a friend of my grandmother’s. I’m not proud of this, but I was frightened of her because she was enormously fat, and when she asked me for a hug I ran away and hid in another room. I was told that I was very rude and had hurt her very much, and made to come back and give her a hug. I do think that, although my impulse was rude (clearly fat people are not disgusting or frightening, and I am sure it was very hurtful for her), it was wrong to force the issue. A child should not feel obliged to hug a stranger.
An interesting case is arising with my niece. She can be capricious with her affections (she’s 3), and is recently very resistant to hugging my dad. This is upsetting to him; on the other hand, I do think that she is old enough to pick up on his disinterest and unwillingness to engage on her terms. It’s the natural withdrawing you feel from a person who is incapable of responding to your affection. I don’t know what I’ll do when it’s my kid - I am rarely affectionate with my dad myself these days, but I do want him to feel loved.
I mean, if your dad is patient your niece will come around. My niece was like that the first couple of years of her life - she was scared of men. But just by being there a lot she eventually warmed up to me. I never forced the issue, of course.
I mean, yes she will come around. But asking my dad to be patient assumes a self-awareness he just doesn’t have
Rereading the last sentence of your original comment, and please don’t take this the wrong way, maybe you should model the affection you’d like to see for your niece and eventual kid? I’m a big hugger and grew up in a family of huggers, so maybe you could make sure to visibly hug your dad in front of your niece to model the desired behavior and show that it’s normal? At the very least it might make your dad feel better, knowing that you’re loved is important, especially as we age to the point where we aren’t particularly productive.
Respectfully disagree on this one. As someone who is not a hugger myself, I’ve never been one to force it on my kids. This has never been an issue as our extended family and friends are pretty chill, but if a grandparent truly felt slighted because my kid didn’t want to hug and kiss them I would probably talk to my child about how we could show grandpa we are happy he’s here in another way. Maybe make him a special drawing or bake them something or just say in a nice way “hi grandpa, ima I glad you are here.”
I get that we need to teach kids that showing affection and welcome to family members is important, but maybe it’s the adults who guilt kids into giving hugs that never learned the art of caring for others feelings and comfort.
I don’t agree that children need to be made to feel bad.
I don’t believe that adults are entitled to affection from anyone, especially children.
I believe that any kind of affection in a relationship should be given voluntarily out of desire for that connection.
It comes naturally when in relationship.
If a relative hasn’t invested in getting to know my child, it’s natural my child won’t want to spend time with them or hug them.
My kids have a family member who makes them feel uncomfortable.
I’ve never told them about his objectifying comments, stares, ogles or stacks of porn in his house.
They can feel it, and as a result feel repulsed by him and refuse his “affection” though he tries to buy them with toys- as many groomers do.
My oldest at 15 told me last year, that this relative is a pedo and he just knows. I neither confirmed nor denied this, rather talked through how to handle the scenario.
Kids know wtf is up. It’s our responsibility to listen and understand so we know when to intervene and how.
So, my 9 year old niece has been raised by her single doctor mom with the usual gentle parenting and long discussions of every little goddamn thing when "no" would suffice, but what do I know, I'm a man who managed to raise, along with my wife, two boys into men, who we had while in our early 30s, twenty years before my SIL decided to have a medically-assisted baby at 49.
At 7 or 8, said niece decided to play hide and seek by laying on the ground under her babysitters Subaru moments before said babysitter got into the driver's seat to go home. I happened to be there and noticed niece under the damn car. The babysitter (a 30 year old normal person making a few extra bucks) and I pulled the idiot child out from under the car and asked her why she wanted to have a car roll over her head? Words like what were you thinking, you could have been killed, were uttered in, um slightly non-gentle, permissive ways.
The Mom, who was inside the house when this happened, was apprised. She was upset that non-gentle words were used with precious-- "she's not used to being spoken to harshly," and a long Mom-niece discussion ensued to convey the message that Mommy would be very upset if something bad happened to precious and would you like some ice cream to get over the hurt of being yelled at?
I think this is a different scenario than what the author is writing about.
I agree with using this an urgent tone of voice in urgent situations.
It’s unnatural to not get angry and protective for your kids even if that means anger at their behavior.
The author is saying children should be shamed into giving affection to relatives. You’re talking more about scolding them for being rude or dangerous- or even making stupid decisions.
I agree, it doesn’t benefit children to smile and play nice when their literal lives are at stake.
“The author is saying children should be shamed into giving affection to relatives.”
The author is not, in fact, saying this.
That’s what I heard
Then you misunderstood the post, which is fine.
Maybe age is a factor here? A 7-year-old probably deserves scolding* more than a 3-year-old who might not even understand the concept of death yet.
* But not sure if I would say "idiot child" even semi-anonymously.
I suspect most of these comments are reflections of the writers’ culture and geography. Some people come from chilly, reserved cultures, and some don’t. I agree with you that there is such as thing as “overthinking,” and think (hopefully without overdoing it) that this is one. I live in a place (Quebec, and also Jewish) where refusing that type of contact is just regarded as rude (although COVID did have an impact on this as on so many things). I also am English Canadian, and so understand the cultural impulses of the opposite reaction. Kids should learn to respect the cultures they grow up in - and eventually, others too.